July 10, 2020

The Council

A modern day council!

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I have been having an exchange with a Catholic and I think it is nearing its end. For reference:

http://spirited-tech.com/COG/2020/03/02/the-true-church/

TLM fan:

Protestant fallacy #1: “The Church that follows the Words of God has the truth.” Really? I know of many protestant sects that affirm the same and yet they are divided in major doctrinal issues. How do you know that your Church is the one that has the truth?

TheSire:

We know who is right given historical methods of interpretation, weighing historical and archeological evidence, and the good use of reason. Roman Catholicism is just an excuse for having to actually exegete passages. It leaves Catholics with fideism. How do you know the Catholic church is infallible? Why do you trust their interpretations? Do you honestly think that every interpretation is equally valid?

TLM fan:

Protestant fallacy #2:”(the bible)…doesn’t have a “Universal Church” but rather churches. If that is the case then Mat 18:17 makes absolutely no sense. Because if I refuse to listen to the Church in Ephesus, then I can move to another city.

TheSire:

Do you suppose that wouldn’t happen with a “Universal Church”? Do you honestly think that they could just email one another and then remove “Bob from Egypt”? You would just have churches operate with the same principle as Matt. 18:17. That would occur with or without a universal church.

TLM fan:

If there were many “independent” churches why then Ignatious of Antioch in 110 a.d said: “where the bishop appear, let the people also be; even as wherever Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church”. Many “independent” Churches? Mmhh

TheSire:

I’d like to first mention that Ignatius wrote to multiple churches. Seven letters are attributed to him and they are also disputed whether they were written by him. I would say that in this passage the author is using the church in a general sense to refer to Christians and nothing in a high ecclesiastical sense that you need to prove that an overarching Chuch body exists. Secondly, this fails to show in the days of the apostles there weren’t multiple local and regional churches.

TLM fan:

Also, it will be interesting to see how you reconcile your idea of the “independent” churches with the fight against the early heresies. Which Church according to you condemned the Arians? Or the Mannicheans? Or the Donatist? Wasn’t that the only one Church (i.e Catholic)?

TheSire:

The first thing to notice is that churches can come together to condemn someone. At the council of Nicea you had three groups of bishops from various churches their to discuss the issue of Arianism. Later, the bishop of Rome would even fall on the side of the Arians. Athinasius actually stood to the errors of that time. Secondly, this won’t be the model throughout time. The Catholic church and such will soon arise. Thirdly, the last infallible council the church had was in Jursalem headed by James the biological brother of Jesus.

TLM fan:

BTW, I loved this from your article: “(prot doctrine of justif) ..It is a novum because, after Augustine got it wrong, Luther was the first one to get it right.” Nice to hear confirmation that no Christian before Luther understood the gospel. Is that what you really believe?

TheSire:

That confuses whether people believed in the Gospel and whether people believed in justification by faith alone. The former isn’t identical to the latter. Secondly, it is debatable whether the Early Church did teach a proto-sola fide:

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2015/09/did-early-church-teach-faith-alone.html

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/05/francis-beckwiths-reversion-to-roman.html

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/11/diversity-of-roman-catholicism-at-time.html

TLM fan:

you know what is really interesting about Protestantism? that is so full of contradictions. e.g., if you believe that Luther was the first Christian that got the gospel right, then let me reply to you with an argument from Mr White himself…(I love it)

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TheSire:

That is fine because I’ve already clarified this point above and here I wish to state that I am happy you agree with Dr. White. This as I pointed out before leaves you rejecting the Catholic view because the Catholic view is absent from the Bible and ECFs. It arises partially in Augustine and is later developed into the sacramental system. My point is that you need to stop being Catholic if you accept that argument. There are many dogmas that most ECF never even heard let alone believed. Furthermore, the Protestant view has attestation from before Luther. From source prior to Aquinas, prior to Anselm, prior to Cyril, prior to 325. It is the OT testament saints from where Paul derived his theology of justification.

http://spirited-tech.com/COG/2019/11/21/before-the-judge/

Furthermore, this avoids the issues of the Catholic Catechism that I brought up and the reference to the contradictions in dogma that I complied within the article I sent.

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